and non elect god knows

There is just news as to the way things have been predetermined to be. He choseor electedthem. Believing only happens to the elect because it is effected by God only in the elect. It is a love which knows the very worst and yet loves: a love for the hostile, the indifferent and the repugnant. Lutzer ultimately tells people that they must believe to know they are unconditionally elected. So finally let's see what we can find about God's reaction to those who seek him. What Is The Purpose Of The Preaching To The Non-Elect? Resistible Grace Saving grace can be resisted because God won't overrule man's free will. It is they who reject the gospel. Furthermore, if the person is not unconditionally elected to salvation they cannot respond to the invitation to believe and be saved. That's not true. In effect, Lutzer has taught that people determine their unconditional election by fulfilling the condition of believing on Jesus. This diagram shows the situation: Ultimately the hearers are presented with the fact of an unconditional election that overturns the good news that they are loved by God and provided salvation in Christ and that salvation can be theirs if they willingly agree with God that they have sinned and that they need cleansing, forgiveness and justification. Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul. Jesus said that the days would be shortened for the elects sake, not the sake of the elect and the non-elect (Matthew 24:22). In addition, Lutzers redirect in assuring people they can know they are among the elect is somewhat self-centered and narcissistic. Lutzers message here is confused. So, from a Reformed perspective, no one with true faith ever falls away, but one may "[taste] the word of God, and the powers of the world to come" Hebrews 6:5, and lack a sincere relationship with God (a redeemed relationship, that is). Matthew 11:27 - All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. What does a doctrine of unconditional election have anything to do with what can properly be said to be good news? Whether a person has been unconditionally elected by God to salvation is unknowable, except by their presupposing the doctrine is biblical and then reading it into their own experience. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. They have no choice in the matter. I was asking more about "answering God's call" than the Baptism itself. That salvation is a spiritual happening. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Because you can find out whether or not you are a member of the elect. The tough part of answering this question is understanding your meaning of "seek God." There is good news to be proclaimed and heard. Were Patton's and/or other generals' vehicles prominently flagged with stars (and if so, why)? Of course you might have lots of people that say they seek God and don't find him, but if they do not find him this is only proof that the thing they were seeking was not God but a counterfeit. I have reserved for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. When Lutzer instructs people to detect their unconditional election or reprobation by believing or not believing, and yet Lutzer also makes salvation conditional and dependent upon whether one believes or not, unconditional election losses its substance and meaning. But this seems to be circular reasoning, or at least mere presumption that unconditional election is the explanation of those who believe at Lutzers invitation for them to do so. Paul called the Colossians to whom he wrote the elect of God (King James Version; Gods chosen ones in the WEB Bible), not the elect and non-elect of God. That is why the Calvinists salvific determinism is unbiblical. The elect or chosen people in the New Testament are believers from all nations. [3] I deal elsewhere with the Calvinists response to peoples observation and objection that to choose some for salvation while simply ignoring all others and leaving them to die in their sin with no opportunity to escape their fate of eternal damnation certainly seems to make God out to be unjust and unfair. Those people are the elect of God. It also talks about those who persist in this rejection as hardening their hearts. In the New Testament, the term "elect" is mentioned 14 times (ESV). Then youll know you are a member of the elect.[1]. The Spirit will continue to work until he has produced in you the effect he has predetermined faith. His doctrine of unconditional election becomes irrelevant because he is compelled to do what the non-Calvinist does in their free offer of salvation to all and their call to believe which presupposes libertarian freedom. 9-11). .. But how can we boast? God is the only one who knows the real from the counterfeit. This is completely contrary to his Calvinist soteriological doctrines. That can only be presumed as an explanation of the matter. Personally, I'm not too sure about that (see Jeremiah 29:13, "'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.'") I made a minor edit that should bring this on topic. When we contemplate the urgency of our witness, what we should feel is this: It is absolutely essential for the sake of the elect that I do my evangelism. But when salvation understood as the Bible presents it, the explanation for a persons unbelief is that they are willfully refusing to believe and rejecting the salvation God offers to them in Christ. He does not think this incoherence is interpretively significant. Frankly, I think the answer is tucked away in the verse I've just quoted in part. Rather, God through the Spirit are always at work in each and every persons heart and mind who hears the preaching of the biblical gospel message. why isn't the aleph fixed point the largest cardinal number? That is precisely what you cannot do. Paul divides ethnic Israel up into "the elect" and "the rest". That has to be read into the event. This every man can do, even as a sinner dead in trespasses and sins because God calls upon him to do it. 2 days of "and the lord heard me - i have my answers" || nsppd || 6th july 2023 God no longer considered it His nation and the Jewish people His people. 1st Chronicles 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 1st Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. Subscribe to our mailing list to receive our newsletter. The Body of Christ, then, consists of elect and non-elect Christians. 1:3-14); solely because of God's saving grace, the elect will inevitably turn to the Lord in conversion. Repent, and believe in the Good News. We obey Jesus by believing the Gospel. Neither does it confirm the truth of such a doctrine. As far as any other Religion is concerned that must be asked on a different site. The gospel calls all sinners to trust in Christ so that we may be saved. There is no way to prove the doctrine of unconditional election by salvific experience and no way for its content to play a part in good news evangelism. Of course in this life all we ever see is snapshots somewhere short of "glorified", but those who seek God will find him because they only sought God in the first place because they had been called (and justified). We dont. Thats what Calvinists believe. But Paul says that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal (2 Timothy 1:8-9). When this doctrine of unconditional election is lurking behind the scenes, it turns the gospel and human responsibility on its head. Man is born again when he believes and receives God's grace. And when salvation is understood as the Bible presents it as good news, it is calling all people to believe and be saved. The Bible tells us nothing of two classes of Christians. The good news has been distorted because the preaching of Christ has become irrelevant to a host of non-elect sinners hearing the good news. Indeed, unconditional election has contaminated the gospel so that it is no longer good news. The truly good news has also become irrelevant to the elect within the framework of unconditional election. He is a Calvinist and therefore holds to a doctrine of unconditional election. Can an Elect Person Die Without Hearing the Gospel? - Desiring God Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. In a similar respect, I get worried that my efforts to help or ease or relieve or please persons which end up being non-elect will be entirely in vain in other words, any improvements made to their life will be in vain within the context of the eternity which awaits them Is God pleased when people improve the health and wellbeing of the non-elect (as He knows Himself who is elect and who is non-elect) or doesn't He care at all about whether they are in affliction or in an 'unpleasant' condition or whether they are prospering? The Bible never says that you must believe to know you are among the unconditionally elect or that only those unconditionally elected to salvation will believe. What God offers regarding salvation he offers to all and it therefore applies to all. The only non-elect are those people who do not believe and are not saved. It is an essential element in the content of the gospel. https://www.moodymedia.org/radio-programs/running-to-win-15/forgiven-forever-part-4-1/#.W9oOJo-WxD8 (6:57 8:45). But by their fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. Change). (1) Election does not mean that God merely knew who would believe and on that basis elected them. Sinners do nothing with respect to their salvation and eternal destiny. Why free-market capitalism has became more associated to the right than to the left, to which it originally belonged? Therefore, it is at the time the sinner humbles himself, gives assent to the message of the gospel, confesses that they are a sinner and trusts in Christs death on their behalf that Gods saving work is applied to them. When a sinner puts their faith in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins they are saved. rev2023.7.7.43526. He does not call people to a salvation that he has predetermined they should never receive. Unconditional election has been imposed onto the experience. God does not cause the one or the other on the basis of unconditional election. Paul's doctrine of election reflects on how God has chosen in the past." We are instructed to do it! And in presenting the gospel in this way Lutzer presupposes libertarian freedom. The emphasis has shifted from the salvation disclosed to all and available to all that is found in Christ, to an unknown decision of God made in eternity past regarding everyones eternal destiny. Frankly, I do not have a definite answer, one way or the other. Does God Love the Non-Elect? | Desiring God Furthermore, if we are talking about how one can know they are elect, the corollary also applies, that is, we should be able to know who are the non-elect or reprobate. Note that it is no longer a matter of knowing that you are saved because you believe in Christ who is presented in the gospel as your Savior. The Scripture always places faith in the context of the response of the individual sinner to what they hear in the gospel. When Lutzer says, Thats the only way you can know is by coming to Christ in humble repentance and receiving, by faith, the gift of eternal life, what a person is actually coming to know is how they can be saved, not that they have been unconditionally elected. Who are the elect of God? | GotQuestions.org Whether I can know I am among the unconditionally elect, something Lutzer in the end fails to provide people, still leaves us with the problems attending this doctrine. Calvinists insist that salvation is all of God and all of grace. What they mean by this is that salvation from start to finish in terms of what a person believes, experiences and does is all the work of God. The good news is that if they surrender to Gods way of salvation and put their faith and trust in Christ, and simply receive Gods gift of salvation, they will have their sins forgiven, abundant life here and now and at death eternal life in heaven with Jesus. But this is to promote synergism that cooperation between God and man in salvation that Calvinists so vehemently object to. How then do we know that the believing in Jesus is a direct result of their unconditional election? He never tells them that if you find yourself believing, you will know you are among those predestined to salvation and among those unconditionally elected because he knows that is nonsense in light of the biblical revelation of the gospel and the nature of faith. The distinction is not between the elect and the non-elect, but between the saved and the unsaved. According to Catholics, who are "the elect"? As long as I can know I am among the elect that is fine. And because they confuse, erode and are incoherent with that good news, they are no part of biblical soteriology. Many are those who think they are following God who actually are not. It is not God who does not love them nor desire their salvation. This has things backwards. If a person truly trusts in Jesus alone for salvation, that person is one of the elect. According to Lutzers Calvinism if God is working and if the Spirit is working these just are that persons regeneration. I thought this was information no one is privy too. In that God is a God of truth, we know therefore that that these overtures are genuine and therefore they apply in the same way for the same purpose to all those hearing them. Since this is a Christian answer site I can only assume that you are asking about seeking the God of the Bible, and I will answer it in that context (from the Bible). Come to Christ and be saved! In the latter, a persons eternal destiny is fixed. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Accessed 10/31/2018. and our It is God that justifieth. This is incompatible with a gracious inclusion of all sinners in the saving work of Christ and therefore a genuine call to a decision to accept Christ as savior. It speaks of people refusing to believe to the damnation of their souls. What does that mean? (Today's post was adapted from John's book, The God Who Loves, pp. That the Bible uses the words elect and chosen to refer to some people is indisputable. A question regarding God and the non-elect : Reformed - Reddit It is a strange confusion of legitimate biblical language, concepts and doctrines that understood in their proper context do actually serve the gospel as good news.. Determinism precludes presenting Christ as the savior of all sinners, who upon hearing the gospel can receive Christ and be saved. And of course Christ will not cast anybody out who comes, because only those unconditionally elected or predestined will come. For Further Reading: In that God cannot lie, he cannot speak an invitation to salvation and only have it apply to an elect group while that same invitation to salvation is heard by a non-elect group. Intellectually he knows his doctrine of unconditional election is problematic for the gospel as good news. But as a Calvinist who believes it is biblical teaching he must give it its due. To all people Lutzer says, if the Spirit is working in your heart, you come as if they are responsible for the coming and could do otherwise. I thought that according to Calvinists we were not supposed to pry into the eternal counsels of God. Moreover, the preaching of the Gospel to the non-elect is made an admirable test of their characters. With this in mind let's see what we can learn from Scriptures. This is where we must press the Calvinist on the matter of the precise content of their gospel message. Thats what makes it good news. God enables them to respond positively to that good news. At the point of hearing the message the sinner needs to respond, which, contrary to Lutzers doctrines of total inability, unconditional election and effectual calling, is just what Lutzer is saying. Peter addresses his first epistle to the elect or chosen ones according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood (1 Peter 1:1-2). Answer Simply put, the "elect of God" are those whom God has predestined to salvation. Are we really going to be let in on the premundane choice of God as to who has been unconditionally chosen for salvation and who has not? Therefore the words he speaks are true for the hearer. They want to be saved and therefore they believe. And the persons are responsible for their belief or unbelief. If Lutzer is employing gospel language, or even touching upon the genuine good news about salvation, he undermines it by his unconditional election. It is to be noted that God has other purposes in the preaching of the Gospel than the salvation of His own elect. It is itself the source of all that might elicit it: faith, repentance and spirituality. At the judgment, the pseudo-Christian will be culled and thrown into hell. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. How does this believing evidence unconditional election if you dont already presuppose that Calvinism is true, particularly the doctrine of total inability?. To be saved is the evidence that you are one of the elect. Stack Exchange network consists of 182 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. It tells us that he chose us in him before the foundation of the world and that he predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:4-5). Lutzers doctrine of unconditional election proves to be irrelevant. In fact, Gods elect are the lowly things of the world, and the things that are despised, and the things that are not so that we could never boast that God chose us because we were better (1 Corinthians 1:26-29). Reformed theology finds no place in that continuum for half-way measures. Our election in eternity is according to Gods purpose and grace and has nothing to do with our works. I deal with this fairness issue in detail elsewhere, but it is sufficient to observe here that Calvinists need to have peoples common sense responses to unconditional election stifled and redirected. Some people dont like to talk about this. Unconditional election seriously distorts and confuses people with regard to the truth of the gospel as good news for all sinners. February 10, 1985 - Clear Theology What Lutzer has told them has to do with them appropriating the salvation accomplished for them by Jesus. There are not two groups of sinners elect sinners and non-elect sinners. It says nothing of any people whom God did not choose, but who chose Him. Rather than a joyful, universally applicable salvation message of divine saving love and grace demonstrated in the cross of Christ which can be sincerely offered to all and freely received by all by simple faith alone, the dark cloud of an unconditional deterministic salvation has taken front and center. Does God REALLY Love Everyone? - SOTERIOLOGY 101 If you are a believer, the elect are people like you whom God has chosen from eternity to be born into this world, to be sinners, to be born again, to miraculously believe that Jesus Christ died for them, to be sanctified and to be glorified to an unimaginably exciting destiny. These are the evidences that the person is among the elect and already born-again. According to Lutzers soteriology a person cannot resist the Spirits work. The total depravity, unconditional election and effectual call of the Calvinist soteriology are all presupposed here and offered as the explanation of why a person believes. From Sandy Hook to Uvalde: A Moral Tragedy or Triumph of DNA? You say that God hardened Pharaohs heart and the hearts of the people who did not believe Jesus. The world exists for the elects sake yet others have the benefit of it. PDF Calvinism vs. Arminianism vs. Evangelicalism The 5 Points of The Merciful Mystery of Unconditional Election Article by Jon Bloom Staff writer, desiringGod.org Election is a topic currently absorbing the attention of Americans (and a watching world), given the significant political event about to take place in the United States. They cannot even believe. The point here is that since election is unconditional, it is incoherent and disingenuous to speak as if there are conditions which the persons themselves must fulfill to receive the gift of eternal life. It is incoherent to speak of fulfilling conditions to know that you are unconditionally elect and by virtue of that election God has chosen you to be saved. From the perspective of Reformed Theology, in relation to Unconditional Election: What happens if someone who is not elect, tries to seek God? Am I included? Hence, where has the gospel gone? From the passive stance of waiting for God to work in them, once a person senses this work, once they find that God is working in their hearts, Lutzer then tells them what they need to do. This tells us that God has predestined the elect and the non-elect from their very conception (pictured by the seed) for two different destinies. In Christianity, the doctrine that God unilaterally predestines some persons to heaven and some to hell originated with Augustine of Hippo during the Pelagian controversy in 412 AD. There is no good news in Calvinist soteriology. In its entirety it reads, "Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, 'The Lord knows those who are His,' and, 'Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.". The sinners response of faith in Christ alone as sufficient for the receiving of salvation is undermined by an unconditional election that is determinative of who will and who will not be given the faith to believe and be saved. In his attempt to inject some good news into his doctrines of grace he has nullified his own doctrines. . So Lutzer has the sinner determining whether they are among the unconditionally elect by having them believe.
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